One reason Christians engage in apologetics is to provide answers to serious questions about the faith by relatively honest seekers. Some questions, however, appear not quite so serious. For me one such question is, "Why won't God heal amputees?" Made famous by Marshall Brain, this simple inquiry is presumed by some skeptics to expose the abject absurdity of miracles, of prayer, of God's love – indeed of theism generally – and therefore to send Christian apologists beating a hasty and shameful retreat before the overpowering logic of unbelief. Of course that hasn’t happened. For a sampling of effective, rational responses to the amputee question, consider offerings at Christian Skepticism, at Answers in Genesis, and at Triablogue.
Now my own immediate response to the question "Why won’t God heal amputees?" is something like, "Because He’s too busy trying to decide whether or not He can create a rock too heavy for Him to lift.” In other words the Amputee Question belongs in the same category as the old Rock Question – it's a clever rhetorical device that has almost nothing to do with the substance of the issues (like theodicy or the general efficacy of prayer) it purportedly addresses. But rhetorical questions such as these persist because they provide convenient substitutes for the hard work of constructing serious, sound arguments. That said, the following is my own response to the Amputee Question.
Right off the bat we need to brush past the loaded nature of the question itself. To ask "why God won't" do something is to take it as a given fact that there is something God won't do. It would be like asking "Why won't atheists just admit that they believe in God?" Hardly a matter for serious dialogue. Not all theists, certainly not this one, would take it as a working premise that God won't heal amputees. So to try to answer why God won't do what has not yet been demonstrated that he has not done (or will never do) is to get ahead of ourselves, and concede too much. Also, even if we were to concede that God has never healed an amputee, it doesn't follow that he won't heal an amputee, or lots or all amputees, in the future, including in the future eternal kingdom of heaven. (And it should be noted that it seems a bit calloused to use people with amputated limbs, many of whom firmly believe in God despite their painful physical and psychological experiences, as inanimate props in an argument for atheism in the first place.)
Next we need to consider whether there is an actual argument here. As mentioned the question is almost purely rhetorical on its face. But an argument of sorts is at least implied. According to Upchurch and Galling at Answers in Genesis, the argument can be reformulated thus:
1. An omnipotent God would heal amputees.
2. Amputees are not healed.
3. Therefore, an omnipotent God does not exist.*
Here the first premise states a theological proposition and the second states an inductive generalization drawn from human experience, followed by the conclusion that God does not exist. But none of the premises have been established, so on the face of it the argument is unsound. Few if any serious theologians would take the statements "An omnipotent God would heal amputees" or "The Bible promises to give us anything we want in prayer" as sound inferences derived from either systematic theology or careful exegesis of particular biblical data. Neither is it a fact that no amputees are healed (though it certainly appears that the vast majority are not); nor that prayer doesn't work.
As to the second premise: it may seem at odds with experience to dispute the proposition that amputees are not healed. But for the argument to be successful the proposition that no amputees are healed needs to be confirmed. That assertion runs afoul not only of the problem of induction and proving negatives, but of specific instances of amputee healings documented by Craig Keener and others, and arguably, by certain miracles in the New Testament. On the other hand, if the essence of the question is "Why are some amputations, physical ailments, etc., not healed?" then this would be the same question most of us have asked, particularly when in pain. God doesn't heal most people with headaches or strep throat or kidney disease, so they take pain relievers and antibiotics and use dialysis. God doesn't heal most amputees, so they undergo rigorous therapy and use compensating devices like wheelchairs and prosthetic limbs. Non-healings have been a painfully obvious fact of life for all people for millennia, long before Marshall Brain first began to ponder the non-healings of amputees. Seen this way the Amputee Question is little more than an observation that there is natural evil in the world.
The strength of the Amputee Question, then, is that in rhetorically effective and compact form it calls attention to two traditionally popular arguments, the logical argument from evil and the argument against miracles. The weakness of the Amputee Question is that countless philosophers and theologians of all stripes agree that these are no longer considered sound defeaters of theism.
Hi Don, I found this blog of yours from the signature of a theist's profile on a religious debate site. I saw the title of this article, read through it and here are my responses.
ReplyDeleteTo put things into the proper perspective, I am an atheist agnostic. I was raised Christian, and was considered by myself and others growing up to be very devout. I started questioning Christianity in my teens but did not consider myself atheist then (I didn't even know the word at the time).
Okay, so for my response. I am going to use quotation marks to indicate content copied from the article, since I don't know if this site supports quote boxes.
"Made famous by Marshall Brain, this simple inquiry is presumed by some skeptics to expose the abject absurdity of miracles, of prayer, of God's love – indeed of theism generally – and therefore to send Christian apologists beating a hasty and shameful retreat before the overpowering logic of unbelief. Of course that hasn’t happened."
This would be true if humans were completely logical. However, I fully acknowledge that not all of one's beliefs are completely founded in logic. Sometimes, some beliefs survive despite the power of overwhelming logic.
Another critique I have of that statement is when you say that this argument is used by some skeptics to expose absurdity in, among other things, theism in general.
I disagree. The question does not work with theism in general, only those theisms that promote a god who has the knowledge, ability (or power) to heal amputees among other illnesses/injuries and who promises to do such.
A hypothetical theist could be a follower or promoter of a god who does not have the power to restore limbs.
" For a sampling of effective, rational responses to the amputee question, consider offerings at Christian Skepticism, at Answers in Genesis,"
I have a personal rule when it comes to certain Christian sites. Not all of them (the forum I mentioned at the top of this response is a site I am on almost daily), but sites like Answers in Genesis have segments called Statements of Faith, where they, in so many words, promise to alter or omit evidence that doesn't line up with their preconceived declarations of what is 'true'.
I am willing to read other Christian sites, but I will not deal with AiG and others like them. They are dishonest and are strangely proud of it.
"Now my own immediate response to the question "Why won’t God heal amputees?" is something like, "Because He’s too busy trying to decide whether or not He can create a rock too heavy for Him to lift.” In other words the Amputee Question belongs in the same category as the old Rock Question"
I disagree with this statement. I have asked the question myself in the past, so I can say that the reason I ask it, (which I presume is similar if not identical to the reasons other atheists have asked it), is that restoring limbs is a power that Christians, via their Bible, claim their God is and has quote unquote in fact done!
Think of God being able to create mankind in the first place. This would necessarily require God to have the knowledge of human anatomy, as well as the ability to do so. So God would have had to generate Adam and Eve's limbs in the first place (assuming for the sake of argument that you believe in a literal Adam and Eve).
There's also healings done direct by God in the Old Testament. There's God healing Sarah, Abraham's wife, of barrenness.
There is King Jeroboam pointing his hand at a prophet, and the hand shrivels up. The prophet intercedes for him, and it is restored.
Off-hand, with regards to Jesus, there is the scene of his arrest. Jesus's apostle Peter swings a sword at one of the soldiers, and lops off an ear. Jesus puts his hand to the ear, and it is restored.
I am of course omitting full on resurrections, for brevity.
(continued in Part 2)
Part 2
ReplyDeleteSo no, the question of healing amputees is NOT like asking can an all powerful God create a rock that even he can't lift? The amputee question points to instances from the Christian's own holy book where their God does indeed heal, if not amputations of full limbs, then extremely similar ailments, and also resurrections.
The rock question exposes a logical contradiction in considering omnipotent entities, whereas the amputee question exposes a logical contradiction in omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent entities.
" To ask "why God won't" do something is to take it as a given fact that there is something God won't do. It would be like asking "Why won't atheists just admit that they believe in God?" Hardly a matter for serious dialogue."
Au contraire, I have encountered arguments about atheists just like or similar to the above. Off-hand, I am thinking of a 2014 debate between Christian apologist Sye Ten Bruggencate and atheist Matt Dillahunty, in which, among other things, Sye Ten said of atheists that they do believe in God, and that for some evil sinful reason, they won't admit it.
"So to try to answer why God won't do what has not yet been demonstrated that he has not done (or will never do) is to get ahead of ourselves, and concede too much."
Atheist skeptics like myself are unaware of any instance where a human being's limbs regenerated, and that such an event was confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt. I invite you, as a theist who believes that Godly limb restorations have and do occur, to regale readers with examples of such.
"Also, even if we were to concede that God has never healed an amputee, it doesn't follow that he won't heal an amputee, or lots or all amputees, in the future, including in the future eternal kingdom of heaven."
What may happen in the future is unknown, so appealing to that does not serve your argument well. What is being argued is that here and now, people with lost limbs do not have them regrow. What is also argued is that according to Christians via their holy scriptures, their God has healed similar wounds in the past, and there are certain passages that more likely than not, read as promising to continue to do so. So we have a conflict.
" (And it should be noted that it seems a bit calloused to use people with amputated limbs, many of whom firmly believe in God despite their painful physical and psychological experiences, as inanimate props in an argument for atheism in the first place.)"
Strictly speaking, I don't use this as an argument for atheism. I use it as an argument against Christian theism, which is not the be all and end all of theism.
"Next we need to consider whether there is an actual argument here. As mentioned the question is almost purely rhetorical on its face. But an argument of sorts is at least implied. According to Upchurch and Galling at Answers in Genesis, the argument can be reformulated thus:
1. An omnipotent God would heal amputees.
2. Amputees are not healed.
3. Therefore, an omnipotent God does not exist.* "
My biggest complaint with this part of your article is that you are talking about a question typically asked by atheist skeptics, and for some reason, when it comes to formulating it as a proper argument, you turn to a group of theists, instead of reaching out to said skeptics and asking them how they would word it. This certainly does bear the air of a strawman. I will write my own version of the argument, continued in Part 3
1. An omnipotent God would heal amputees.
ReplyDelete2. Amputees are not healed.
3. Therefore, an omnipotent God does not exist.
Premise 1 – Christians state that their God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
Premise 2 – Christians state, via their texts which they promote as telling truth, that their God has healed wounds that are of a similar nature to, if not identical, if not worse, than lost limbs, even up to and including resurrections.
Premise 3 – Certain passages in the Christian holy texts promote a promise that this God will continue healing such injuries.
Premise 4 – Amputees suffer wounds that would be trivial for said God to deal with. However, their wounds are demonstrably never healed.
Conclusion – The God promoted by Christians either does not exist or is inaccurately described by them.
“ Few if any serious theologians would take the statements "An omnipotent God would heal amputees" or "The Bible promises to give us anything we want in prayer" as sound inferences derived from either systematic theology or careful exegesis of particular biblical data. “
Here is where the flaw in the formulation you are using is. All it deals with is the omnipotence characteristic that the Christian God is claimed to have. If that is all we quote unquote know about God, then yes, what you state would be correct. Am omnipotent God does not have to automatically heal amputees.
However, as stated in my own formulation of the argument, this is not all we are dealing with. We are dealing with a God who is all powerful, all knowing, and all good, who has healed grievous wounds and who promises to continue to do so. However, the conflict with reality is that said wounds are not healed [by God].
“ Neither is it a fact that no amputees are healed (though it certainly appears that the vast majority are not); “
Here is where I invite you to show us amputees that have indeed been healed. Given the nature of the claim, I must insist on as strong evidence as possible, to make sure that the person did in fact lose a limb or limbs and that they did regrow. I ask this of you so as to strengthen any claims you bring forth: people claiming divine healing when it is not in fact true is not an unknown phenomenon.
Continued in Part 4
Part 4
ReplyDelete“As to the second premise: it may seem at odds with experience to dispute the proposition that amputees are not healed. But for the argument to be successful the proposition that no amputees are healed needs to be confirmed. That assertion runs afoul not only of the problem of induction and proving negatives, but of specific instances of amputee healings documented by Craig Keener and others, and arguably, by certain miracles in the New Testament. “
A critique here is that you do not expound on who this ‘Craig Keener’ is, along with the others. Personally speaking, I am not familiar at all with him. I have literally never heard of him. A quick Google search reveals a person by that name who has a Ph.D. in New Testament studies. I am not going to comment on this man, as I am not sure if this is indeed whom you speak of.
As for referring to miracles in the NT, let me remind you that the question that spawned your article is something being asked by atheist skeptics. Trying to prove to people such as us that limb regeneration has in fact happened by pointing to the Bible is an exercise in frustration. We have no reason to trust this citation.
“On the other hand, if the essence of the question is "Why are some amputations, physical ailments, etc., not healed?" then this would be the same question most of us have asked, particularly when in pain. “
Not just some amputations, but all. We use amputations because, as far as we are able to ascertain, amputations are not cured. Humans are not like starfish.
“God doesn't heal most people with headaches or strep throat or kidney disease, so they take pain relievers and antibiotics and use dialysis. “
What did the soldier struck by Peter’s sword take? Or King Jeroboam?
“God doesn't heal most amputees, so they undergo rigorous therapy and use compensating devices like wheelchairs and prosthetic limbs. Non-healings have been a painfully obvious fact of life for all people for millennia, long before Marshall Brain first began to ponder the non-healings of amputees. Seen this way the Amputee Question is little more than an observation that there is natural evil in the world. “
One that shows that the Christian claims of a loving God who heals wounds, injuries and illnesses are at odds with the reality of this world.
I invite you to ponder the formulated argument that I published in Part 3. Do you disagree with any of the premises? Are any of the premises (1 through to 4) false or inaccurate in some way?
Exodiatehecoolone,
ReplyDeleteThanks for taking the time and trouble to post here.
Rather than address all your objections to my argument, many of which I think are nitpickings, I will go straight to your counterargument:
>>>Premise 1 – Christians state that their God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.<<<
Agree.
>>>Premise 2 – Christians state, via their texts which they promote as telling truth, that their God has healed wounds that are of a similar nature to, if not identical, if not worse, than lost limbs, even up to and including resurrections.<<<
Not sure I agree here. Can you cite a biblical passage describing the miraculous restoration of a severed limb? If not, the rest of your argument doesn't really go through. That is, you would have to detail your criteria for "similar" and "worse" (for a deeply depressed or suicidal person an amputation would likely be thought considerably "worse" than death) – not to mention explain why similar and worse cases are relevant to the singular question of whether God ever heals amputees in particular.
And more to the point: Could you really remain an atheist if you became privy to certain knowledge that God healed wounds of a "similar" nature and even raised the dead, but for whatever reason never healed a single amputee? Arguably one well-attested resurrection (like the resurrection of Jesus) would mean a much bigger problem for atheism, than countless examples of amputees who have never been healed would mean for theism.
>>>Premise 3 – Certain passages in the Christian holy texts promote a promise that this God will continue healing such injuries.<<<
Agree, with a caveat: some Christians are cessationists, in that they believe miracles and healings have "ceased" since the time of the original apostles. That would constitute another possible reason why "God won't heal amputees."
>>>Premise 4 – Amputees suffer wounds that would be trivial for said God to deal with. However, their wounds are demonstrably never healed.<<<
Disagree. It's not really possible to demonstrate that amputees are "never healed," though it is certainly true that I (and presumably you) have never seen an amputee healed. For example, it is entirely possible – and more importantly, impossible to disconfirm – that the leg of an African tribesman was fully restored from a mere stump just last week, but when he and his friends tried to spread the news beyond their village, no one believed them and the account of his healing got no further.
The challenge for you here is trying to prove a negative in the face of the problem of induction. In case you're interested I addressed this problem in more depth here:
https://infidels.org/library/modern/don_mcintosh/transcending-proof.html
>>>Conclusion – The God promoted by Christians either does not exist or is inaccurately described by them.<<<
A couple of problems here:
First, the conclusion only follows if all your premises are true, i.e., facts in evidence. But three of your premises are questionable at points, and one appears to be outright false.
Second, the conclusion wouldn't really follow from the set of premises provided even if those premises were accepted as true. It may follow intuitively, but not logically. You still need to fill out your argument with the necessarily entailments.
Hi Don, sorry for the late reply. I'm only now rechecking the blog.
ReplyDelete"Not sure I agree here. Can you cite a biblical passage describing the miraculous restoration of a severed limb?"
I worded Premise 2 as it is for a reason. I am not just strictly speaking looking for regrown limbs (that is, arms and legs) but any body part that typically does not grow back. Skin growing back after a bad sunburn would not count for what I'm looking for, but as I mentioned two or three times in my rebuttals, an ear would. Or a shriveled hand.
If you are not familiar with the two examples I gave, please look up Gospel Luke 22:51.
As for King Jeroboam, please read 1 Kings 13.
" That is, you would have to detail your criteria for "similar""
A wound on the body that typically does not grow back or heal itself naturally. If you chop my hand or arm off, or an ear, I will not have a new hand or arm or ear, except through prosthetics.
"not to mention explain why similar and worse cases are relevant to the singular question of whether God ever heals amputees in particular. "
Christians such as yourself say that God HAS healed wounds in the past, have you not? It is in your holy book, correct? I also mentioned creating humans in the first place, which would necessitate knowledge of human anatomy.
My bringing up similar/worse wounds (or creating humans) is to showcase that on the one hand, we hear Christians claiming God does heal wounds of this nature, but then on the other, when it comes to amputations, those are demonstrably NOT healed, despite the fact that they should be trivial for a God on the first hand to do.
"And more to the point: Could you really remain an atheist if you became privy to certain knowledge that God healed wounds of a "similar" nature and even raised the dead, but for whatever reason never healed a single amputee?"
If I became convinced that a God exists, and that this God healed wounds (but not amputations) and performed resurrections, then yes, I would not be an atheist.
However, that does not in and of itself mean I would immediately follow him or worship him. There are plenty of people I am convinced exist, with knowledge and abilities greater than my own, yet I do not follow them or worship them.
"Arguably one well-attested resurrection (like the resurrection of Jesus) would mean a much bigger problem for atheism, than countless examples of amputees who have never been healed would mean for theism. "
We'll have to agree to disagree on Jesus's resurrection being 'well attested'.
As for the amputees who are not healed, this, in a completely logical world, would be a problem for theism. Your religion, its holy book, makes claims of a God who heals, who raises the dead but yet for some reason does not regrow limbs.
There's a contradiction here.
"Agree, with a caveat: some Christians are cessationists, in that they believe miracles and healings have "ceased" since the time of the original apostles. That would constitute another possible reason why "God won't heal amputees." "
Are you yourself one of these cessationists? I think not, since in the original article, you make mention of amputations that have 'actually' been healed. You mentioned a one Craig Keener, who apparently has documented such healings.
So please elaborate on what your position is. Has God ceased healings, in which case, your original mention of modern day amputation healings documented by Keener is a red herring; or does God continue such healings, in which case I have to question why you bring up cessationists at all!
Continued in Part 2
Part 2
ReplyDelete"Disagree. It's not really possible to demonstrate that amputees are "never healed," though it is certainly true that I (and presumably you) have never seen an amputee healed. For example, it is entirely possible – and more importantly, impossible to disconfirm – that the leg of an African tribesman was fully restored from a mere stump just last week, but when he and his friends tried to spread the news beyond their village, no one believed them and the account of his healing got no further. "
This sounds very much like a reversal of the burden of proof, although there is a debate to be had here as to which of us is actually making a positive claim.
In any case, you are making a claim (at least, in the original article you were) that such healings have happened. I await evidence to support this claim.
You are correct in stating that it is impossible to disconfirm that an African tribesman had a leg healed last week, but if you or someone else are going to make that claim, the burden is on yourself to prove it true.
"First, the conclusion only follows if all your premises are true, i.e., facts in evidence. But three of your premises are questionable at points, and one appears to be outright false. "
Which one is outright false? If you mean premise 4, I did say "demonstrably never healed", as in, of the times amputation healing has been attempted or monitored, it has not occurred.
If you mean premise 3, this again would not mean much from you. I didn't say the Bible promotes that God will continue such healings; I said certain Bible passages do. What I wrote is similar to saying "There are certain Bible passages that talk about a global flood", which even a non-literalist Christian would have to agree is true (that is, even if that Christian doesn't believe that there actually was a worldwide flood).
Exodia, I'm done with this topic for now, so for now I will leave your last set of comments as the last word on this discussion. Fair enough? Thanks again for commenting.
ReplyDelete